Unfortnately David, the US is in a position where it is too late to enforce gun control. The right to own a gun is a citizen's constututional right, and despite tradgedys like this most politicians would never go back on this right. Bush himself stated that this incident would not warrant an investigation of federal gun laws. Republican candidate John McCain said the incident did not change his views on everyone's right to own a firearm...
"We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the second amendment except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad poeple".
Unfortunately, when your state's gun laws are as weak as Virginia's guns can easily fall into the hands of "bad people". Not only has every citizen got the right to to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, but firearms do not need to be registered and owners don't even have to be licensed! Anyone can walk into a shop and buy a gun without a cooling off period... the only limitation is that you may only buy one gun a month.
On a federal level, gun control is impossible becuase the US has already established gun ownership in the second amendment... But on a state level, the least they could do is have tougher laws in states like Virgina where they are so lax that "bad people" have a means to access weapons so easily...
The right to own guns (or in Virginia's case, the right to own concealed weapons without a permit, or a license or registration)
Plus
a country with as many people as the USA
equals
more bad people with access to guns...
So what does that say? "Lets just make sure guns don't fall into the hands of bad people" ...yea McCain, it's that simple eh?
I just pray that something is done to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. Unfortunately, not a lot can be done especially when the most drastic course of action infringes upon a honest citizen's contitutional rights. But then again one would say having metal detectors at a primary school an infringement on rights too.
-Cub. =o)
"We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the second amendment except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad poeple".
Unfortunately, when your state's gun laws are as weak as Virginia's guns can easily fall into the hands of "bad people". Not only has every citizen got the right to to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, but firearms do not need to be registered and owners don't even have to be licensed! Anyone can walk into a shop and buy a gun without a cooling off period... the only limitation is that you may only buy one gun a month.
On a federal level, gun control is impossible becuase the US has already established gun ownership in the second amendment... But on a state level, the least they could do is have tougher laws in states like Virgina where they are so lax that "bad people" have a means to access weapons so easily...
The right to own guns (or in Virginia's case, the right to own concealed weapons without a permit, or a license or registration)
Plus
a country with as many people as the USA
equals
more bad people with access to guns...
So what does that say? "Lets just make sure guns don't fall into the hands of bad people" ...yea McCain, it's that simple eh?
I just pray that something is done to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. Unfortunately, not a lot can be done especially when the most drastic course of action infringes upon a honest citizen's contitutional rights. But then again one would say having metal detectors at a primary school an infringement on rights too.
-Cub. =o)
Just saw the news here and the vidio of the killes explaining why he did what he did.
Realy have to say its sad that he wanted to kill so many peaple just becouse he felt that the pealpe with money didnt deserve it. i probebly said it wrong but u get the idee.
I just cant find any way to say anything good about it at all just sad for all the victoms
Realy have to say its sad that he wanted to kill so many peaple just becouse he felt that the pealpe with money didnt deserve it. i probebly said it wrong but u get the idee.
I just cant find any way to say anything good about it at all just sad for all the victoms
Cub I agree, it's such a shame in a way that it's something that is so hard to go back on. I'd love to turn back time and see how the UK managed to get rid of guns. In the 1800s they must have been as common as everywhere else in the world but something changed.
I know it's not just america but it's really strange going to other countries and seeing guns on display. I was in Paris last week and there were at least 15 armed soldiers patrolling the eiffel tower, seeing guys with guns always unnerves me.
As for the video - I've not seen it and I hope it doesn't go on youtube. It's human nature to be fascinated by the macabre and I bet millions will watch it. I'd rather not hear his justification as there is none.
But hey I guess what's done is done and nothing will change as a result of it. I just wished there was something I could do.
I know it's not just america but it's really strange going to other countries and seeing guns on display. I was in Paris last week and there were at least 15 armed soldiers patrolling the eiffel tower, seeing guys with guns always unnerves me.
As for the video - I've not seen it and I hope it doesn't go on youtube. It's human nature to be fascinated by the macabre and I bet millions will watch it. I'd rather not hear his justification as there is none.
But hey I guess what's done is done and nothing will change as a result of it. I just wished there was something I could do.
Basic sob-story formula to be honest: "I'm angry at someone so I'll kill you all until either the cops or my own guilt catches up to me and then I'll end myself."
Bastards. Off yourself at the onset and spare the entire world a lot of shock and grief whydoncha!?
People like that are the posterchildren for birthcontrol.
-Fred
Bastards. Off yourself at the onset and spare the entire world a lot of shock and grief whydoncha!?
People like that are the posterchildren for birthcontrol.
-Fred
Pirates, vampires, zombies, ninjas, ghouls, aliens, goblins, monsters, robots, sorcerers, undead, werewolves, demons, mutated dinosaur-cyborgs and those pesky phone salesmen! The shotgun is a one-size-fits-all solution!
A few years ago at the Appalation School of Law, which is just up the road from Virginia Tech, a disheartened student returned to the school and started a similar killing spree. Fortunately, two other students ran to their cars to retrieve their own firearms and were able to hold the killer at gunpoint until police arrived.
When you're confronted by a killer there is absolutely no substitue for effective self-defense.
When you're confronted by a killer there is absolutely no substitue for effective self-defense.
Difficult topic. Some believe guns should be abolished, but since somone always eventually gets hold of a firearm, some believe they shouldn't.
Myself, and I speak only for me here, I believe people should have access to firearms. I also believe there should be a goddamn hard screening process to get a permit as well.
Other than that, I tend to agree with Chris Rock - Bullet control.
-Fred
Myself, and I speak only for me here, I believe people should have access to firearms. I also believe there should be a goddamn hard screening process to get a permit as well.
Other than that, I tend to agree with Chris Rock - Bullet control.
-Fred
Pirates, vampires, zombies, ninjas, ghouls, aliens, goblins, monsters, robots, sorcerers, undead, werewolves, demons, mutated dinosaur-cyborgs and those pesky phone salesmen! The shotgun is a one-size-fits-all solution!
Everyone likes to think of the U.S. as the world leader in violent crime. Even we Yanks like to think that. So I'll bet it would suprise you to learn that Canada, Australia and even the UK surpass the U.S. in violent crime.
I've attached some links here that illustrate some of these statistics.
Comparing violent crime rates in Austrailia and the United States:
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/Aust.jpg
Comparing violent crime rates in Canada and the U.S.
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/Can.jpg
Comparing violent crime rates in the UK&Wales to the U.S.
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/UK.jpg
A few interesting things to note from these figures. Violent crime in the U.S. has been dropping while crime in Canada, Austraila and the UK has been increasing.
The decrease in crime in the U.S. coincides with more states inacting right to carry laws. We have 40 states with right to carry laws now.
Meanwhile, the increasing crime in Austraila, Canada and UK coincide with more laws restricting gun ownership. In particular, look at the extremely sharp increase in crime in the UK which started about 1998. Is it a coincidence that in 1995, the UK banned all private ownership of handguns. A couple years later, the crime rate skyrocketed past the U.S.
There are a lot of things to think about here. You may have a different interpretation as to what this data means in regard to gun restrictions. That's ok. But one thing that is clear from these statistics is that the U.S. is not the Wild West everyone thinks it is.
Also, places we like to think of as being peaceful, like Canada, Australia and the U.K. actually have higher violent crime rates than we do.
Hard to believe, but there it is. This data was compiled by a professor at the Simon Fraser University in Canada.
I've attached some links here that illustrate some of these statistics.
Comparing violent crime rates in Austrailia and the United States:
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/Aust.jpg
Comparing violent crime rates in Canada and the U.S.
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/Can.jpg
Comparing violent crime rates in the UK&Wales to the U.S.
http://home.tir.com/~pdrallos/images/UK.jpg
A few interesting things to note from these figures. Violent crime in the U.S. has been dropping while crime in Canada, Austraila and the UK has been increasing.
The decrease in crime in the U.S. coincides with more states inacting right to carry laws. We have 40 states with right to carry laws now.
Meanwhile, the increasing crime in Austraila, Canada and UK coincide with more laws restricting gun ownership. In particular, look at the extremely sharp increase in crime in the UK which started about 1998. Is it a coincidence that in 1995, the UK banned all private ownership of handguns. A couple years later, the crime rate skyrocketed past the U.S.
There are a lot of things to think about here. You may have a different interpretation as to what this data means in regard to gun restrictions. That's ok. But one thing that is clear from these statistics is that the U.S. is not the Wild West everyone thinks it is.
Also, places we like to think of as being peaceful, like Canada, Australia and the U.K. actually have higher violent crime rates than we do.
Hard to believe, but there it is. This data was compiled by a professor at the Simon Fraser University in Canada.
ok im not trying to be smart or anything but i was thinking whats the tatal population of australia and usa
Australia = 20,808,489
usa = 286,196,812
ok rhw numbers might be a bit off but lets say the pic is corect dr paul showed us and im sure it is based on facts.
it all depens on how u put the numbers down on what they tell
ok 2003 400 out of every 100.000 peaple had a runn in with the law on the usa side and in australia almost a 1000 out of every 100.000 citisens if u see it like that wow ausies are bad
ok another way
20,808,489 / 100.000 = 20.8 that times 1000 making a total of 20.800 violant crimes
286,196,812 / 100.000 = 286.1 that times 400 making 1092.400 violant crimes usa has more crime then ausie
in the end its all on how u present the numbers but that discusion ill leave alone i worry more about the death of many where ever they may happen to live usa canada uk ...
hope i didnt ofend anyone aspecialy u dr paul
Australia = 20,808,489
usa = 286,196,812
ok rhw numbers might be a bit off but lets say the pic is corect dr paul showed us and im sure it is based on facts.
it all depens on how u put the numbers down on what they tell
ok 2003 400 out of every 100.000 peaple had a runn in with the law on the usa side and in australia almost a 1000 out of every 100.000 citisens if u see it like that wow ausies are bad
ok another way
20,808,489 / 100.000 = 20.8 that times 1000 making a total of 20.800 violant crimes
286,196,812 / 100.000 = 286.1 that times 400 making 1092.400 violant crimes usa has more crime then ausie
in the end its all on how u present the numbers but that discusion ill leave alone i worry more about the death of many where ever they may happen to live usa canada uk ...
hope i didnt ofend anyone aspecialy u dr paul
Looking at all these statistics, it appears that when gun control is strict, there is not less killing, just less gun-killing. In other words, gun control does not lower killing, because there are plenty of other ways of killing people. Even if the state is successful in removing all guns from accessibility, killers will use knives; remove knives and they'll use poison; remove poison and they'll drown their victims; remove water and they'll strangle them with a cloth; remove the cloth and they'll strange them with their bare hands - but by then society would be without knives, toxic chemicals, water, and clothing.
Unfortunately, only a 1984-style authoritarian government (if even that) can stop someone who is a murderer by nature from living out what they want to do. The answer is in reforming society, hearts and minds. Government (as usual) needs to stay out of it and concerned individuals have to expend their energy in changing culture and helping one another cope with the aftermath of the outrageous actions that are inevitable in a world full of imperfect people.
I grieve for the families of the victims and of the killer. The gun was symptomatic of a mind crazy with hate. We've got to find a way to treat the anger. This is a costly epidemic.
Unfortunately, only a 1984-style authoritarian government (if even that) can stop someone who is a murderer by nature from living out what they want to do. The answer is in reforming society, hearts and minds. Government (as usual) needs to stay out of it and concerned individuals have to expend their energy in changing culture and helping one another cope with the aftermath of the outrageous actions that are inevitable in a world full of imperfect people.
I grieve for the families of the victims and of the killer. The gun was symptomatic of a mind crazy with hate. We've got to find a way to treat the anger. This is a costly epidemic.
I totally agree Jerry Dan.
Guns or not guns, you cannot change the nature of people, but you can educate folks to make better choices in life and understand the value of human life better.
Too many people would rather point a gun at their problems... it's easier, cheaper and quicker. I can only hope that the world can change enough so that our children may not be subjected to this in the future.
-Cub. =o)
Guns or not guns, you cannot change the nature of people, but you can educate folks to make better choices in life and understand the value of human life better.
Too many people would rather point a gun at their problems... it's easier, cheaper and quicker. I can only hope that the world can change enough so that our children may not be subjected to this in the future.
-Cub. =o)
I gotta keep up with you, freep! You're the Standard Bearer of Stuffness!freepizza wrote:You are a brilliant man Jerry. All hail you wisdom and stuffness!
~ Member: Tex Murphy's Mutant League, Crazy 888's Chapter~
*Revitalizing Old San Francisco's Chandler Avenue District With Style*
(also known as Steve Douglas, but usually by people less awesome than UTMers)
*Revitalizing Old San Francisco's Chandler Avenue District With Style*
(also known as Steve Douglas, but usually by people less awesome than UTMers)
No offence taken. I expected my post to stimulate some discussion, and I certatinly expected you to defend your own country's honor. Good man! However, I can't believe that you are actually satisfied with your interpretation of those statistics.n the end its all on how u present the numbers but that discusion ill leave alone i worry more about the death of many where ever they may happen to live usa canada uk ...
hope i didnt ofend anyone aspecialy u dr paul
What I mean by that is that I can't believe that you would accept the notion that a higher rate of crime among a smaller population indicates a more peaceful society that a lower rate of crime among a larger number of people.
And I ask only this: When you hear people nit-picking and criticizing the United States, think of how you feel when Australia is in the cross-hairs. We're people too ya know. And there's a lot of good over here.
Jerry, I agree completely with what you said. I would like to add a few thoughts.
As you suggest, one type of "peaceful" society is the Police State. There, we have no freedom and we are all automatons. Not very pretty.
Also as you suggest, a free society has to be a moral society. People must be naturally compelled to do the right thing, or, in more practical terms, to not do the wrong thing. This is the sort of thing that family and community can instill.
In recent years, I think society has lost its way in the fog of moral-relativism. The idea that there are no absolutes and everyone has their own version of right and wrong. But when people lose their moral compass, then they need laws to set right and wrong. And in that case, they will need laws for *everything*. Unfortunately, that brings us back to the Police State.
Meanwhile, in trying to preserve the freedom of the individual, we can't ignore the fact that there are always going to be some flawed individuals who decide their pain trumps your life. We have to face the fact that we are imperfect creatures. We want to live free. We want to live in peace. But in a free society, there are no guarantees. That is the price of a free society. The question is, "How do we pay that price?"
On that question, there are many opinions. My opinion is that we do our best to instill a sense of right and wrong and inter-dependence on each other. We make it be in our own best interests to do the right thing. But no matter how hard we try, there will still be people like the Virginia Tech killer. However, until they strike, you never know who or where it will be.
Dealing with it after he's killed 32 people is not the answer. But how does a potential killer learn or decide that it is in his own best interest not to take aim at 32 people? For one thing, if he thought those 32 people (and anyone else on the campus) might shoot back at him, he might reconsider. If he doesn't reconsider and he shoots, it will be the last mistake he ever makes if others are armed.
Gun free zones say to a killer "Shoot, stab, strangle anyone you want because nobody here will shoot back." Until we evolve into perfect creatures, if we want to live free, we need to be able to defend ourselves. An armed society is a polite society.
We can hope for a time when self-defense isn't necessary. Meanwhile, we must live in a real world.
As you suggest, one type of "peaceful" society is the Police State. There, we have no freedom and we are all automatons. Not very pretty.
Also as you suggest, a free society has to be a moral society. People must be naturally compelled to do the right thing, or, in more practical terms, to not do the wrong thing. This is the sort of thing that family and community can instill.
In recent years, I think society has lost its way in the fog of moral-relativism. The idea that there are no absolutes and everyone has their own version of right and wrong. But when people lose their moral compass, then they need laws to set right and wrong. And in that case, they will need laws for *everything*. Unfortunately, that brings us back to the Police State.
I agree again, but what is the path? IM!2HO, first, we must get off the path of moral-relativism which only leads to chaos or a Police State. I would bet that each of us on this board, scattered around the world in different countries, all share the same sense of morality. Let's accept that fact instead of pretending it isn't."The answer is in reforming society, hearts and minds. - not government[sic]."
Meanwhile, in trying to preserve the freedom of the individual, we can't ignore the fact that there are always going to be some flawed individuals who decide their pain trumps your life. We have to face the fact that we are imperfect creatures. We want to live free. We want to live in peace. But in a free society, there are no guarantees. That is the price of a free society. The question is, "How do we pay that price?"
On that question, there are many opinions. My opinion is that we do our best to instill a sense of right and wrong and inter-dependence on each other. We make it be in our own best interests to do the right thing. But no matter how hard we try, there will still be people like the Virginia Tech killer. However, until they strike, you never know who or where it will be.
Dealing with it after he's killed 32 people is not the answer. But how does a potential killer learn or decide that it is in his own best interest not to take aim at 32 people? For one thing, if he thought those 32 people (and anyone else on the campus) might shoot back at him, he might reconsider. If he doesn't reconsider and he shoots, it will be the last mistake he ever makes if others are armed.
Gun free zones say to a killer "Shoot, stab, strangle anyone you want because nobody here will shoot back." Until we evolve into perfect creatures, if we want to live free, we need to be able to defend ourselves. An armed society is a polite society.
We can hope for a time when self-defense isn't necessary. Meanwhile, we must live in a real world.